Invisible PPC, Retargeting your Web Traffic with Joe Troyer

Next up on the podcast is Joe Troyer. Well known for his podcast Digital Triggers and the man behind Invisible PPC, Joe has been in the game since 2005 and again one of those guys who have a broad range of skills. One thing he did mention in the podcast is that he really wanted to niche down and become a specialist in one area, rather than being a jack of all trades. This is why he is currently doing the Invisible PPC model at the moment; which is doing really well.

Joe is very similar to me in a lot of ways. He’s not that interested in having 50 staff members all giving him a headache. Instead, he wants to get his head down and do a bit of work and make some money working smart.

You can listen to the video or audio version of this podcast above, or read the transcribed version below.

So welcome to this podcast. I have an amazing guest who I’m sure many of you will have seen or heard of before, Mr Joe Troyer. Joe, thank you for taking the time to come on to the podcast. I know you are very much a podcast do-it-yourself and it’s probably good to be able to have you on that side of a podcast for a change and see what you’re up to. But for any of my audience who do not know Joe, Joe has been in this industry probably as long as me back in the early 2000s. College dropout… I wasn’t a college dropout as such, I just didn’t know what I was doing and started blagging my way into this industry and it looks like you’ve had a similar career path, just trying this shit out, and obviously it was good back in the days. So at the moment, Joe, how does the land lie with you? How do you make money? You can see in the background there you’ve got your Invisible PPC, you’ve got your podcast. Is it still all client work and stuff you’re doing?

Yeah, so everything really focuses first and foremost on client work first. And that is my testbed, that’s my baby. Honestly, that’s what gets most of my attention these days. And then essentially with Digital Triggers in the podcast, I’m sharing everything that I’m doing in my agency business and my e-Comm businesses and other spinoffs that I’ve built. I realized very early on that with SEO and learning that as a skill, that can be applied to literally anything. And for me, when I first got started, probably like a lot of people, doing it for other people was a means to an end. And then I realized you can make a lot of money doing it for other people and you can build a really awesome business that’s very different, right, than e-Comm for yourself and other business models.

SEO & PPC To Start off a campaign

So I do an SEO as a practitioner, so to speak, first, and then take everything that I learned and share that on Digital Triggers. And we sold some training over there, but mostly just content and my way to give back to the community. And then you can see Invisible PPC behind me. Everybody needs fulfilment, right? And for me, SEO and PPC have always been one and the same. Except for probably my first two years in business, I’ve always sold them together. And the reason is, I found that if I just do SEO, people drop off, right? Because they can’t wait for the results. Three months in, they’re like, “Come on man, where’s the ROI?” And so I call it my yin and my yang strategy, right? I got my longterm ROI with SEO and I got my short term win and “here’s my proof” and “here’s me getting you leads today”, right? Not in six months.

Yep. No, it makes complete sense to do that. And I think obviously it would work well because I think most obviously in this industry we do see clients drop off and we always complain, “Not given us enough time,” and blah blah blah. And so it’s obviously a very good business model that you’ve obviously got there, and you probably are one of the only guys that I know from back then who still enjoys doing client work or anything like that as well. It’s quite interesting to see that you’re still a practitioner, so to speak because a lot of gays just go down the route of e-Comm and stuff like that. But as you say, there’s still a massive amount of people out there who need a good PPC guy and a good SEO guy or just a good marketing guy. So do you have a team there, is it in house staff, do you have VAs? What’s your set-up like there?

In-house PPC Team

Yeah. So I have an office here. It’s two floors, it’s about 2200 square feet. I’ve had lots of people in this very office and actually had the office next door as well. So we had roughly 4,400 square feet. And I found for me personally that it can be a little bit of a… And I’m going to swear on here, hopefully, that’s okay. Can be a head-fuck walking into an office with employees in it every day. And if you’re not careful, it can really mess with your head, and, I found, ended up bringing down my demeanour and the level that I was playing at, walking into maybe a team that wasn’t as excited about the opportunities as I was.

And so I found that for me, I like having a team in person, don’t get me wrong, but I like to keep it as an executive team if I can. But, that being said, I’m always hiring virtually and I’m really looking for the best talent. I don’t care where it comes from. I don’t care if it comes from here. I’ve got one of my great right hands is in Europe. I’ve got another developer of mine that’s absolutely amazing. He’s in Romania and makes crazy US money. So I can only imagine how well he’s living in Romania. But I don’t care where somebody is located, I just want the best. Right? I don’t have time for the rest.

That makes sense. I think again, what you’re doing, it probably was cool at one point to walk into the office and have all those stuff in front of you and go down the pub saying, “I’m in charge here”, but does it really provide that much value when you can have a guy in Romania do the same work for maybe half the price as well. You’ve got to look at all of that kind of stuff. But you’ve also had software companies and stuff in the past as well, haven’t you? What I’d be curious to know, obviously having read up on your background and stuff like that, you’ve been very successful in the different things that you’ve done, but what keeps you doing client work? Is it the money? Is it just…?

It’s the foundation. It’s the foundation for me. It’s the basics, and a lot of my businesses rely on agencies, right? I’m helping train agencies, I’m building solutions for agencies, I’m sharing with agencies what I’m doing in my agencies. I’m sharing software that I built for my agency with other agencies. And to be honest, Craig, I’ve just seen way too many people start serving agencies because they have an agency. And then as soon as they make a couple more bucks on the info and training side or software side, they leave their agency and then they’re just hawking shit and they’re just selling stuff that really isn’t a solution. It’s a half-baked idea. “I got to make some money tomorrow, so let’s throw out a training course that we’ve never touched before, we’ve never done anything with before. It’s never been used, and hopefully, this shit works.” And to be honest, I despise that. So for me, my agency has to be my number one focus and everything else is just, it’s huge profit margins and it’s got to be fun for me. And I take that money and I shove it in other investments for me.

Client work or white label services?

Yeah. But going back to the agency side of things, or the work that you do, it’s not just the run-of-the-mill clients. You’re serving agencies with your software and everything else, so it’s more like a white-label solution.

Still doing run-of-the-mill, though, as well, so to speak. I’m practising what I preach, right? I think these days… I don’t think that you can be a generalist any more and get away with it in the marketplace. The market is too sophisticated these days unless you’re going to a country that’s super far behind. Even Australia is so much further behind than we are in the States in terms of Google and everything else. You might be able to get away with it somewhere like that. But in the States, it’s tough, man. It’s cut-throat. There are so many marketers out there and people are getting privy to the pitches. So I think that you’ve got to niche down and you’ve got to focus and you’ve got to become a specialist in something. And for me, I think the major easy opportunity lies in just picking an industry that you want to be an expert in. And so that’s what we’ve done. We’ve picked an industry that we’re an expert in, and that’s where we play in my actual brick-and-mortar “agency”.

Yeah, no it’s good to hear you say that. And again, something I totally agree with. I think back when we were doing SEO, back in the mid-2000s and everything, you pretty much-done everything. You wrote your own content, you have done your own links. You have done everything, and you had to be a general marketer if you like, you had to have pay per click and everything. But now, everything has its own special subject. Even guys who do things like Facebook ads, for example, there’s so much in terms of AB testing and what you can do with Facebook ads that you need someone who knows that inside-out rather than someone like me who can say, “Yeah, boost the post, and do this and do that.” I understand the basic concepts and retargeting stuff, but I’m not the guy that those Facebook ads day in, day out.

Not me either. I’m not either. And it’s crazy, Craig. To that point, I was just looking, I was trying to help a client of mine find somebody to run Facebook ads. They’re just a home services company. And I don’t run Facebook ads, like you, and so I’m like, “Yeah, I’ll help you pre-vet somebody, I’ll at least give you a couple of candidates that I think would be good.” So I go on Upwork, I create a job profile or create a job post and start hiring, and man, it’s insane. Even with Upwork, everybody’s a Facebook expert these days. It is nutso. ClickFunnels this, ClickFunnels that, the Facebook marketing experts, I mean, up the wazoo. And you’ve got people in the Philippines, and I’ve got lots of Filipinos on my team, but you got people in the Philippines charging $1,000, $2,000 a month the US to run Facebook ads.

Jeez.

So talk about market sophistication level. Man, you’ve got to be an expert, I feel like, these days.

Yeah, definitely. And I think that’s what every client is looking for as well. From what you said earlier, clients are used to the usual crappy sales pitches and everything else. Whereas I think clients now know, if you want an SEO guy or a  link builder for example, you go for a guy who builds lights, so not the general SEO dudes who talk shit about SEO and doesn’t actually practise what he preaches. So no, I think that the customers and everything are becoming more aware of that, and I think you’re right, niche down and become good at something. And obviously you’ve got your software and everything else and all of that kind of stuff to be able to make you a viable option above all of the other PPC dudes or whatever it is going to be and really stand out from the crowds.

Become a Local SEO Expert

It’s not that hard, man, to become an expert though, if you think about it. I still think that local niches like that, there’s so much money stuck in those local niches and verticals, and it’s not that hard. If you pick any random niche, let’s say you pick one niche, you do fulfilment for three or four clients and you’re an expert in that niche. Why? You got results, you got rankings, you got case studies. That’s more than 99% of the market has. How hard is it to be an expert and to be able to talk the talk and walk the walk? It’s simple.

Yeah, I think there’s obviously what you said earlier, there are lots of different marketers out there, but I still feel that there are not that many people actually that good at a lot of the specifics. So when I look at it, I’m like, “Hand on heart, could I name 50 really good guys in the world?” I’m not so sure. There probably is, but the ones that I come across who are so-called experts, you’re like, “Oh jeez.”

Although there’s a lot of competition at the end and everyone’s setting out to become a marketer, I don’t think there’s actually, as you say, it’s not as if we can’t do local SEO. There’s still a lot of shit local SEO out there. And obviously get your citations and everything else done. It’s relatively simple and straightforward to rank well locally. And is everyone doing it? Absolutely not. And I know loads of guys from America are big on Lead-Gen from a local SEO level and make millions and millions of pounds a year. And they can’t dominate every niche going, or “niche” or whatever you say in America. We call it “niche” here. But yeah, I think there’s a lot of untapped money still there to be taken. But in terms of going forward, is that something you plan in doing? Do you plan on expanding out to do other stuff, or what’s the plans for the future?

Yeah, so right now I have the agency as the front working on actual B2B local businesses. Then I have Digital Triggers, obviously selling training and giving back to the community. Then we have Invisible PPC doing fulfilment. This year, Invisible PPC added on a new product. Primarily before, all that they did was Google search, and that’s by far their bread and butter. But we’re limited to the businesses that actually do Google search, right? For every a hundred businesses out there, what, maybe 10 of them, 20 of them maybe do Google search. So severely limited.

Multichannel Retargeting

So this year we rolled out a new product, which is really simple but has been crushing it the entire year, which is just multichannel retargeting. And it’s all the big platforms, right? But we all know that we let 90% of our traffic go. We can’t convert them, we don’t convert them the first time. So what are we doing to bring them back? Well, the best of us maybe have Google retargeting running or Facebook retargeting or one channel. There are about eight different channels that we hit, and we just play this super aggressive retargeting campaign that starts at 250 bucks a month for us to run. And so that’s been a big hit this year or well in the last 12 months.

So for anyone listening that only uses Google stuff in there and they’re not really retargeting anything else, where are you seeing the quickest wins? What platforms? Is it Quora ads, or what platforms are you seeing super-good results from?

So at the end of the day, I think it’s important to know with retargeting, the reason that it works is just it’s that reminder every impression, right? That people see your ad. It’s like, “Oh yeah, crap, I forgot I was looking at buying that Bluetooth speaker. Oh yeah.” It fires that synapse. You’re like, “Oh yeah, I forgot to do that. Let’s go do that.” So that’s why it works. And I think it’s important just to think about though. And then secondarily it’s like, well then where’s my customer base? So wherever your customer base is, whatever sites they’re on, you should be showing up there, right? And that’s how we think about retargeting. And so if you’re just on Google, that’s great. Google has a big footprint with Google’s display network. Obviously lots and lots and lots of sites. I think they cover 70 or 80% of the world’s websites out there, something like that. It’s a crazy-huge footprint.

Gmail ads inside of Google are great. You obviously have YouTube ads then that you can run in video ads that you can run inside and those are all great options, but you still have Facebook, which obviously we know gets a boatload of traffic, right? You got Twitter, you got LinkedIn, right? Then you got other third-party display networks like Google, but they just don’t have Google’s footprint. And so very quickly you can spread a very big footprint, and at the end of the day, you’re only paying when you actually show an impression. So if your ad isn’t seen, there’s no cost. So we want to be everywhere that our users are, to answer your question, Craig, and then ultimately then we take it to the next level.

And the next thing that we’re worried about is banner blindness. So Craig, when you’re seeing the same ad 10 times for that Bluetooth speaker, you’re like, “All right, enough already.” And you start to just kind of tune it out, right? And so we change up those ads and we just show a bunch of different ones. So every time it’s a new ad experience, a new viewing experience, and you’re like, “Oh yeah, crap, I completely forgot about that Bluetooth speaker, and here’s some reviews and here’s a testimonial, and oh look, a sale and a coupon code.” And we just keep changing up the call to action and the graphic design so that you don’t get banner blindness.

Yeah. So for anyone out there who’s potentially listening in and going, “I want to know more about this. What am I potentially missing out on?” In terms of not retargeting through these other various other channels that you talk about, is that something your training courses provides?

Yeah. Or just go to invisibleppc.com. To be honest, we charge 250 a month for that service. If you’re going to pay somebody to learn it or you’re going to do it yourself, you’d probably just be better off having us do it. Just because we’re white-label, we find that a lot of agencies are like, “Yeah, we want to use you too because it’s just so cheap.” But ultimately at the end of the day, Invisible PPC is really, really good at running systems and processes all day every day, like a factory. Right? And so we know that we just throw the jobs over and they all look exactly the same, that they’re going to get done and they’re going to get done right every single time. And so when you look at really how much time it would take, not that this is supposed to be a sales pitch for Invisible PPC, but it’s going to take you a long time. We don’t ever launch an ad campaign without creating over 250 different banners, right? I mean, just the time for that, and it’s 250 banners and it’s 250 bucks a month. Like, really?

Yeah. That was going to be my next question. I mean that sounds too good to be true if you like.

And that’s the goal. But that’s the goal, and understand as well that we primarily work with agencies. So if it was too good to be true and we’re only getting one sale, that wouldn’t be very good for us, right? But if it’s too good to be true, and somebody’s really excited so they come on board and there’s no friction in the sales process and they bring us one client or it’s themselves and then all of a sudden they got 20, 30, 50, 100, clients, right, that’s a big one for us. And that’s where we went. If we were going direct to consumer, we could never keep those prices the way that they are.

Yeah, no, it’s, as I say, not everything is too good to be true. And I think what’s clever about guys like yourself and if you unravel why, it’s the processes and everything else that you’ve got there. You’ve got the thing in place, so as you say it’s literally chucking it in. And you’ve done it a million times over and it’s just a rinse-and-repeat process for the same people. But it sounds like a great option for people to try. And as I say, I don’t normally do that, but I think people will… They’re always looking for something different, and I think what would be quite good for people to try is try different channels rather than the usual Google only channel, and give it a bat. Because I think certainly in my experience from when I used to do client work and whatnot, retargeting really wasn’t that big thing. A lot of them don’t do it, and if you’ve got high-ticket items, people are not buying instantly. So as you say, those just gentle remainders or changing up and making it different for people are going to stand you in good stead. And everyone’s website is losing 90-plus per cent of the traffic and not capitalizing, so certainly for 250 bucks it’s worth a go.

If you’re getting traffic, typically what we see is we can add 10-30% more conversions relatively quickly. Right? So if you do the math and you’re like, “Yeah, for 250 bucks, that’s a no brainer,” it probably is. If you do it and you’re like, “I don’t know if that’s going to work,” it probably won’t, is the way that we look at it.

The way I look at it is to give it a bash and for. 250 bucks and if it works, great. If it’s a pile of garbage and doesn’t work, then you’ve always got that ability to walk away. So try, as I say. Try and test. But on to the next thing that you do and one thing I’m curious of is your podcasts in… So you do podcasts and everything else and a lot of people are starting to do a lot more podcasts. You’ve done them for a while now. How do you see your podcast? Do you make money from it? Is this just giving back to people, helping people? What’s your angle on the podcast?

Yeah, I guess I’ll answer that with a story. It was about at the end of 2018. Secretly behind the scenes, I was exiting a bunch of my holdings in the digital marketing space. The agency that I built to roughly 84,000 a month recurring, I ended up exiting. The call-tracking platform that I had built, selling to agencies and selling through my own agency, I ended up selling, and a bunch of other things. And as I sat thinking, “What am I going to do when I get older? What am I going to do when I grow up? What’re the next 10 years look like for me? What’s gone well in the past? What do I want to change for the future? Where do I want to go?” it became evident that I wanted to still play in this market.

I wasn’t going anywhere. I love this market. But honestly, I felt like I didn’t do that great of a job communicating with my audience. I would show up and I’d be like, “Check this out. I just did something really cool inside my agency and I just launched a new training course teaching you how.” And it was genuine and it was good. But a lot of times, man, at the end of the day I felt guilty because it was a promo, promo, promo, promo, right? And I don’t promote that much. But I do internally. When I promote something, I promote it hard. I believe in it, right? I [inaudible 00:23:31] promote shit. So once a quarter I’m slamming something down people’s throats because I think it’s important that they have it. But man, I look back on it and I’m like, “I want to do a better job of communicating with my audience when there is nothing for sale.” And it was something internally that I felt like nobody really does and that I wanted to do better. And so when I thought about how I could do that, I spent a couple of days really mapping out how. The podcast became that way.

But to be honest, man, I had a failed podcast. I had a failed podcast in the past. We ran a podcast at Digital Triggers and it was great, but I had somebody on my team running it and they ended up leaving and the balls got dropped and it never got picked back up again. So for about two and a half or three years, we had no podcasts. So I rebooted the podcast and it was like, “The only way that I’m going to do this is if it adds value to my people and if I can get the systems and processes set up in such a way that all I have to do is say these are the cool-ass people that I want to spend time interviewing and talking with and having on my show like I’m about to have you on the show, and my team takes care of the rest and I don’t have to think about it.”

Podcast didn’t work out

Right? Because that’s why the first one fell apart because I had somebody else running it. We didn’t have all the systems and processes documented, and then it was basically like, “Here you go, Joe, I’m quitting. Here’s everything that you need.” And I was just like, “Shit, [inaudible 00:25:04], I’m not doing this.” And it was such a big ordeal and it was not systematized, it wasn’t processed. There was no VAs, nobody helping. It was just this one guy. I looked at it and I’m like, “Nope.” I just retreated. Instead of jumping in and making it happen, I just retreated. “Nope, I’m not doing it.”

So this time was like, “I’ll do it.” But number one, it’s got to be all about my people, right? It’s got to be about my audience. And then number two, it’s got to be loose enough for me to… Whatever I’m thinking about for the week, if it’s like, “Man, I want to go nerd out with some SEO, let’s get three people on to talk about SEO,” then we do that, right? If my brain’s like, “Hey, I’m thinking about selling a couple of the agencies that we’re building right now,” Then let’s go have people on that broker those deals, right? But let’s keep it free in my brain so that I don’t have constraints. And so that it’s one for me.

Because if it’s one for me and I want to jump on and I want to do the podcast, then it’s going to be fun for everybody else, right? And they’re going to want to follow along in the journey. So the concept of my show is much like yours. I think it’s, “Be a fly on the wall for a conversation I want to have anyway.” And my people fricking love it.

Yeah, no, I think it’s… For me when I’ve been about and tried to learn SEO, you’ve always been like, “Fuck.” You’re having a beer with a guy and you’re like, “People would get so much value from just listening in to that conversation.” The conversation just started with, “Hey, my name’s Joe.” “What do you do?” And then you get into the nitty-gritty about your software and all that. So yeah, I think it’s good to do that. But what people don’t realize, and I think it’s quite important to say, is there’s a process and everything else that goes around about it. As soon as I finish recording this, I’ll download it and give it to the video-editing person and they’ll make a trailer for it. And there’s a sequence of events that happen to make that go out there. And I think it’s not as easy as people think just sitting here behind the podcast and doing the video. There’s a lot of other small things and a process that goes roundabout that to be able to churn them out at a reasonable pace where you’re still enjoying it as well.

Because if I had to do all that and I’m going, “I sat and spoke to Joe for half an hour and I’ve now got to go and edit videos and shit like that,” I would never get anything done.

Yeah, exactly.

So it’s good that you do that. And I think we’re aligned in terms of what I want to get back as well. It’s just speaking to cool guys like you who have been very successful, find out what they’ve got and just a bit more about what they do. And it helps my learning as well because as I say, I’m not an expert in everything, so I’ve had Facebook ad guys on, I’ve had again website brokers on talking about buying and selling websites, and I think hopefully that adds value to it. But as I say, I think a lot of people do it for the wrong reasons. A lot of people think you make a lot of money from doing podcasts, and you’re like, “No, not really.” I was curious.

And I wasn’t in case there was some dark secret, but-

It’s starting to take off more and more. We’re starting to get more virality type of traffic. I mean nothing crazy, but it’s starting to be picked up more in iTunes, right? So I see traffic coming up and growing, not necessarily just when I push it, which is great. Over time it’s getting better and better, right? Not just reliant on, I push it and send an email and it’s like, “Oop” and then it just falls off immediately, which is what it was when we started right? Now it’s a nice little growth. The other thing is, man, I think we’re in a decade of raving. In a sense, it’s easier than ever to create raving fans. I think that Netflix for example, people binge Netflix. Netflix and chill, right? The statement. And that’s not my generation, but that’s all that people do and they just binge episode after episode after episode. And I’ve been guilty of it, but I think you can do that with podcasts, right? You can create contact and in a way, people can binge and it’s like Craig, Craig, Craig, Craig, Craig. What happens after literally every day for a week they’re watching you, or for six months, every week they’re watching your podcast episode? What happens at the end of that? What kind of relationship have you built with them, is the thing that I’m really looking at, and it’s crazy.

It’s something I need to do, I think. I’m at the start of my podcast career, and I’m getting the “up” when you send the email out and about on social media, then “boom”. But I think obviously I’ve got a fairly big following social-media-wise, and I speak at a lot of events, which helps with the growth slightly, but yeah, I’ve still got a lot of work to do and figure it all out. But it’s a learning curve and as I say, it’s something I wanted to do and add value back to other people because I think speaking to cool guys like you on a weekly basis rather than waiting to go to a conference or wait at all. Because you’re surrounded by five of your fans or whatever, you’re at some conference or whatever, we might never get the chance to speak. So it does give that opportunity to network and chat some stuff as well. And as I say, that’s where the business is at, and I think you just have to put your face out there and do a lot more of it. But sadly-

Let me ask you, Craig.e Let me ask you real quick on the podcast side, what’s the biggest time-suck for you?

The biggest time-suck for me? The biggest time-suck is getting people onto the podcast. So they’re emailing back and forth, and I know you’ve got your man  Eduardo who sorts that out.

So I’ll have Eduardo send you our SOPs for that. So all that I give Eduardo is a list of names. He handles the rest. So I’ll give you all of our SOPs and processes for that. I don’t do anything. I literally give him a list of people that I have on, right. I ran into some of our mutual friends, James Dooley and a few others right. And they’re like, “Man, you’ve got to get Craig on.” I’m like, “Yeah, no problem.” I literally texted Eduardo and I’m like, “Hey, Craig Campbell, get him on the podcast.” And I didn’t do anything until showing up today, right? So that’s made that super easy for me.

Yeah. No, it’s definitely something I need to look into. Getting them on and stuff like that is the important and the hardest part for me. Everything else is fairly easy. I’ve got everything else systemized. But yeah, that part, I may have to get myself an Eduardo.

Chasing cats, man, ain’t fun. Herding cats ain’t fun. And all of us entrepreneurs, man, are a bunch of cats.

But sadly, Joe, we are out of time. But for anyone who likes what they’ve got to hear about you, obviously, you’ve got your podcast Digital Triggers, which I’m sure many people have heard of. You’ve got Invisible PPC. Is there anywhere else people should be looking to get hold of you?

Yeah. Digitaltriggers.io, invisible ppc.com and then YouTube. We do pretty consistent content on YouTube as well. You can just look us up, Digital Triggers, but that also gets published over at the blog. So that should get you covered.

Cool. And as I say, I will catch up with you on your podcast next week I think it is, and hopefully have a bit of fun on there as well. But I do appreciate you coming on today. It’s been a pleasure.

Yeah, man, thanks so much for having me on and looking forward to having you on ours. See you Craig and thanks, everybody. Hope you enjoyed today’s episode.

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Craig Campbell

I am a Glasgow based SEO expert who has been doing SEO for 18 years.

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