Buying & Selling Websites with Gregory Effrink

My next guest on the show was Gregory from Empire Flippers, probably the place to go if you want to buy or sell any digital assets. Its not just Amazon Affiliate sites you can buy on Empire Flippers — they have eCommerce websites, Saas tools and pretty much any other type of digital asset you will be able to either buy or sell on their marketplace.

Gregory was kind enough to come on and allow me the opportunity to pick his brain and find out more about the processes behind listing a website, what verification checks are done on listed websites and much more. He was very open about the process and said that as many as 80% of websites are not listed and told to go away and potentially come back at a later stage if they want to get listed on Empire Flippers.

Personally speaking, I like that it isn’t that easy to list on Empire Flippers as it can be a huge investment for anyone buying a website and you want to ensure that its only quality that is listed on that particular market place.

The transcribed version below:

Gregory works for Empire Flippers. For anyone who hasn’t heard of Empire Flippers, it’s a marketplace where you can buy and sell websites. I’m not going to say it’s an Amazon affiliate marketplace because it’s anything but. You can buy SAS tools and AdSense websites, eCommerce websites, and a whole bunch of other stuff. Some of the big, big websites are there.

About Gregory Effrink

C: How long have you been at Empire Flippers out of curiosity?

G: I came onboard in April 2016, so almost four years coming up here. At our next meetup in Hungary, I’ll be celebrating my four year mark. I’m basically like Grandpa Empire at this point.

C: You’re also the face of it. You’re the guy that talks at all the conferences and everything else. You’ve got that job of trying to make Empire Flippers a sort of funny, charismatic outfit.

G: I don’t know if I would go so far as to say I’m the face of it. One thing I’m actually trying to do is make some of our other employees also become more of the “face”. I got our director of sales a speaking spot at a conference here next month. That would be in front of a pretty large audience, so hopefully, he’ll start using his LinkedIn so he can become a face as well.

C: For the guys who don’t know that much about you, if you’re looking to get into affiliate marketing and you’re looking to invest in a site, Empire Flippers is one of the places to go to. I just want you to talk about the process. Obviously Empire Flippers is a marketplace and any old Tom, Dick, or Harry could essentially shove a website up and they tell you guys it’s worth 50 grand and that’s what they want for. Obviously it’s not that easy to bypass you guys. You’re not fools.

The process to get a website listed on Empire Flippers

C: What is the process like for the websites that are coming on to Empire Flippers? I’m assuming it’s going to be a month process, by the time you do some checks, analytics checks, money proof checks, and all that kind of stuff is that kind of how it works?

G: Yeah. We have a few checks in there to kind of weed out the tire kickers, to make sure we have quality sites on there. One thing we do is we charge a listing fee. It’s very small. It’s $297 if it’s your first time you ever come to our marketplace unless you’re on one of our exit planning calls. Then we just usually give that to you for free. We do exit planning usually for bigger businesses.

G: As far as you know how long that actually takes, it depends on how complicated your business is. If it’s a small $50,000-60,000 Amazon affiliate site, obviously that’s going to be pretty quick and easy. That’s our bread and butter. Now if it’s an eCommerce store that has this FBA component and it’s in five different countries, that’s going to take a little bit longer.

G: Our time has sort of increased in terms of vetting, not because of the difficulty of vetting the businesses, just because we get a lot of businesses as you might imagine. We have an entire team just dedicated to vetting those businesses. Even so, we decline around 88% of those businesses because we do try to keep the marketplace very quality. We’re pretty happy with where that is. I think in over the last year and a half the quality has gone way up. I’m very excited about that.

88% of sites get declined on Empire Flippers

C: It’s interesting to hear that you’d decline by 88%. It’s not that easy to get on Empire Flippers. What sort of things would you decline a person on? I’m assuming obviously if they lie about the money, the website, you probably instantly say no. Is there ever instances where a website makes decent money and you still say no? Or is there a website that’s too small to go onto your particular platform?

G: Yeah. On the small side, we have a pretty small threshold you have to meet. If you’re doing a content site, like traditional AdSense affiliate, that kind of thing, you only have to have a 12 month average of $500 a month or more in that profit. That’s fairly easy to hit for most experienced SCS. It’s not really a barrier to entry for them. Where some of those red flags come up for us is, for example, if the seller did try to lie to us.

G: They think like, oh, I’m going to pull a fast one on EF, they’re going to sell it for this big multiple, and I’m not going to tell them I have a PBN for example. Now, just as a caveat, we sell tons of sites with PBNs. There’s absolutely no problem with that. The issue comes up with if the seller has a PBN, they know they have PBN links, and they don’t tell us, we’re going to find out because we’re pretty good at that. We sell content sites all the time. We have our own proprietary way to find out if you lied to us on that. If we find that out, then you’re just blacklisted. You can’t ever sell with us again. Because if you lied to us about that, what else are you lying about?

G: One of our biggest things is trust. A seller needs to be able to trust us that we’re going to get the job done. Also, and this is something a lot of sellers don’t think about, is that a buyer has to have a ton of trust in us. They’re going to buy a $300,000 website from us or whatever that might be, so that’s a lot of trust there. It’s not like we’re giving them money. They’re giving us money. They need even more trust, and we don’t want to put those kinds of people in front of those buyers.

G: Some of the other things that are red flags, like highly seasonal, we don’t like big seasonality. If the trend is, and this is a weird one because most people would think that this would actually improve your valuation, but if you have a profit chart that’s just hockey sticking like this, that’s great for you as the entrepreneur, but freaks investors out.

G: Because that investor is looking at that chart and they’re like, what happens when this stabilizes and what does that mean if it stabilizes, is this a fad, what is going to happen there? They actually prefer slow and steady growth for most investments. It doesn’t mean you can’t sell that. Obviously, you can. It’s just more difficult.

Weird Sites being listed in Empire Flippers

G: Those are some things we’re looking for. We’re also making sure that there’s nothing weird going on. Most of the weird things that happen … For example, let’s say, again, you had the Amazon affiliate site that’s making, I don’t know, $5,000 a month, you didn’t realize that you had a tracking link from another site that is making that site look like it’s earning $1000 more. We would find that out. Now when that does happen, usually it’s not a nefarious thing. In fact, most things we flag as a rejection in vetting has nothing to do with the seller trying to screw someone over or anything like that. It’s usually a genuine mistake, and we help them see that.

G: Another example would be in the FBA space with eCommerce. A lot of these guys are solopreneurs. They’re not exactly the best bookkeeper. We go ahead and build the RP&L, and when they see their actual numbers it’s often the first time they realize how much money they’re actually making. They’re like, “Oh, I’m not making nearly as much as I thought I was. Maybe I’ll come back to you going a couple of months. I’m going to fix some of this stuff.” A lot of the times, it’s nothing nefarious. It’s just like, hey, we need to get this before we can put you up or something like that.

C: Yeah. No, I think from an investor’s point of view, it’s good to know that you go to that level of detail because no one really knows from the outside looking in if you’re unexperienced with the level of detail that you guys go into in terms of vetting those websites. I think a lot of people think you could just chuck any old website up there and bullshit you guys and you guys don’t really know SEO that well. They’re maybe not aware that you guys are participating and have loads of friends in the industry and participate at all the conferences and stuff. It’s good to hear that and obviously for investors, they know that it’s a trusted platform that actually has some form of structure.

G: You bring up a really good point. We get hits, and you will see those if you Google us I’m sure, if they go to the second or third page of Google, there will be people like, “Oh, they don’t know SEO. They didn’t check all these backlinks and all this stuff.”

G: What often buyers and sellers tend to forget with us, is that our vetting process isn’t due diligence. There’s a very clear difference there. Our vetting process is just to make sure the business is legitimate, it is legitimately making the money it says it is, it is legitimately getting the traffic they say they are, and in our own opinion we think this could be a good purchase.

Different types of monetizations

G: Now, we do this across all types of monetizations. I think it’s about 15 different business models that are very different from each other. One doesn’t even have a website technically, it’s Amazon FBA. They don’t even own a website. Obviously we can’t be the experts in every monetization. We always tell people, “You need to do that due diligence.”

G: There was this guy, I forget when it was. I think it was last year or something like that. He came up to me at a conference. He was like, “Why are you guys selling the site that’s declining? This is a total shit site. Why would you sell this?” For him, it probably is. For him, maybe he was a newbie buyer who wants something that’s perfect, that has no problems, but to other customers of ours their due diligence is they want to buy the site that has a penalty or has some kind of problem because they know how to fix it. They basically get that business on discount. Everyone has different due diligence. I always recommend, just realize when you’re looking at our marketplace, there’s a difference between vetting and due diligence.

C: Yeah. I think, for me, when I’m buying websites, I’m looking for something that maybe isn’t anywhere close to 100%, only 50%. I can see lots of content, maybe the guy’s garbage of backlinks or something like where I feel I’m quite strong, and get, as you say…

G: Got to disavow all those Empire Flippers backlinks.

C: Yeah. As I was saying to you off-air, I’ve had guys come up to me … I spoke at a local conference in Glasgow and I also did it in India as well. The figure I spent on a website as a case study was ten grand. Now, ten grand to an Indian is probably a year’s salary, so I get that that’s a lot of money. But I’ve also got other people come up saying, “There’s no way on earth you would ever spend ten grand for a crappy Amazon website. That’s just a lie.” I’m like, that’s just rookie numbers. I’m entering the buying and selling industry at that level. There are websites out there that are selling for … Look at Empire Flippers. I looked there last week. I think the cheapest one was about 30 odd thousand dollars. Obviously, it scaled the way up. I think there was something on there for like 2.3 million.

G: Yeah.

C: I think a lot of the guys out there who are maybe working in agencies or freelancers don’t realize that there is a big world out there of buying and selling websites. I just want to talk about the higher end. Obviously I’ve started at the lower end, as everyone does, and I worked to buy, sell, buy, sell, and built myself up to eventually there was a point where I come to you guys and say, “Guys, I’ve got a website here that owns a 100K a month. Go and get me some money so I can retire.” That’s a longterm goal. What is the most expensive … You don’t have to answer this exactly, because I know you may be tied up with some NDA or whatever. What is the highest end? Are there websites that go for ten, 20 million or whatever? What’s the highest website you’ve seen?

Most expensive site that sold on Empire Flippers

G: On our actual marketplace, the highest one I’ve seen that we’ve sold, and this is the highest business, I believe it was an eCommerce business, was about four million. The biggest straight up just affiliate site was 1.7 million. That probably looked worse than your $10,000 site to be honest. It had a pretty bad design going on for it. In terms of in the general space, I gave a talk last year at JMI SEO, a little 15-minute talk about this concept that a lot of SEOs don’t think about — just how big can you go with these kinds of sites. Everyone talks about the Wirecutter. They sold I think for $20 million to The New York Times or something like that.

G: They’re not that different than your run of the mill Amazon affiliate review site. They’re really not that different. All they did was invest in higher quality content that made them stood out. They had a YouTube channel. Most SEO affiliates are totally afraid of doing anything video related, as you probably know, even though they could just hire someone to go do it for them, but whatever. Different point, right?

G: This is a tip for anyone out there that you want to see the big game that is being played behind the scenes is, if you read any kind of content site … For example, I’m really into outer space. I read this website called Space.com, what a fitting name. Whenever I find myself reading a content site that I like, that I’m coming back to over and over again, I usually scroll down to the footer. In the footer, they’ll usually say what the company is that owns that site. I went to Space.com’s footer, and they were owned by this company that had this portfolio of content sites. I think Tom’s Hardware is one of their sites, something like that. Some pretty big content size. They created their own ad publishing display network similar to AdSense.

G: One day, a few months later, I went back down to that footer and I noticed the name had changed, like, huh, that’s weird, what happened here? I click on that guy and it turns out that that company, I’m forgetting the name, had sold all of their B2C content sites to this other company now. I think they might’ve even sold the like proprietary ad platform that they had created for $132 million, way outstripped Wirecutter.

G: Some of those sites in this portfolio only had a domain rating of 16. They look like anything that anyone JMI SEO, probably most people in your audience listening to this, could easily create. It’s just that most people in the SEO game, they don’t think big. This is not an insult by any means because you’re doing a lot with SEO, you’re focused on it. By being so focused on it, you forget about the bigger business principles of what you can do when you build these sites.

G: That’s the answer, about 120 million or 132 million is the biggest I’ve seen. That was about a portfolio I think of 20 sites.

What types of guys buy sites on Empire Flippers?

C: I’d also be curious to know what sort of guys are waiting in the background, your investors or customers that are buying websites. Is there more of a trend that just these big rich guys just waiting to invest in digital? Because everyone always associates real estate, rich guys just buy real estate. What I feel now is there’s a lot more potential in obviously buying a digital asset and then flipping it. You can do that a lot more. I’d be curious to know if you guys have seen more of a trend that as well. Non-SEO guys, just rich investors coming to you, is there more and more of that happening in the background there?

G: Yeah. To answer first part of your question, for the really moneyed up buyers, ironically a lot of them are our sellers. They sold a bunch of businesses from us. They ended up getting several hundred thousand dollars. For instance, one person sold about $700,000 worth of Amazon affiliate sites with us over a period of a couple of years, used that to buy a SAS, start a productized service, a hosting company, all sorts of stuff. A lot of times what happens is the sellers get that money, then they reinvest it by buying smaller sites from us, and then they improve them.

G: The second part of that question, the second half of our name, Empire Flippers, comes from one of the buyer personas that we call Flipper Fred. That’s their main thing, just like real estate flipping. They buy damaged or wounded business and then they go and heal it up and then grow it and now they can sell it for significantly more. One of my friends, Felipe, we actually have a success story of him. He bought an eCommerce business from us and basically sold it for almost double the price in about two years’ time. I think it might have been more than double the price. Likewise, we have several customers that have done this.

G: In terms of moneyed up people coming into our space, we are seeing that more often. What ends up usually happening is they need to find an operator. Say they’re private equity or something like that that has that kind of money, well, private equity doesn’t actually buy businesses that they run themselves. They usually buy businesses to have transferable management, which is almost none of the businesses on our marketplace. Very few of our businesses have any kind of team whatsoever.

G: Usually they’re very much solopreneur, maybe a VA or two or something like that, but usually no real thought leadership in the business. What the PE company would do for the high net worth individual, they’ll come and find someone within our space, vet that person, and then they’ll deploy the capital through that person, through an entity. We have an entity right now that has bought about 15 million from us over the last year. That’s exactly what they did. They raised money from money from PE to come in to fund their entity, to go and acquire businesses from us.

People sell their Virtual Assistants with their sites

C: Also, when you were talking there, none of the businesses that you’re selling really have a team of staff or anything like that. It’s basically buying the asset. There might be a VA or two. Are people keeping those VA’s on? Do people sell the VA’s as part of the business or do the VA’s stay with the guy and he just keeps doing other projects?

G: Yeah, that’s a good question. What I usually recommend to a seller is if they have a rock star VA that they’re like, I am absolutely not getting rid of this person, or a team member or whoever it is, what I recommend you do is you remove that person from the business, put them in your next business that you’re going to start or whatever project, but during that same moment you’re hiring someone to replace her or him and you’re having that VA or whoever that key employee is train that person up on all those responsibilities.

G: By the time you do go to sell it, it won’t help your net profits because obviously there’s going to be a little bit of expense in training, which will hurt your valuation a little bit, but by giving and transferring that employee, you make the business more attractive. The more you can make the business more attractive, you’ll sell it a lot quicker. That’s something I’ve seen people do.

G: Some people just give away the employee — no problem. Maybe they’re going off doing something else, don’t really need this employee or whatever. If it’s a super key employee, like a developer, usually you’ll have to give that away. Another way you can do that though is you can actually offer support to that buyer. A lot of people think that in negotiations it’s always about price, but you can actually offer support as a negotiation where you help them hire that replacement. You get to keep that talent if you want it.

Can Empire Flippers help with SEO Services?

C: Yeah. You could definitely get processes and everything else that would work well. Now, going back to a beginner potentially starting out in this industry, maybe they’ve got a couple hundred grand to spend on a website, do you guys offer any kind of a support for just a random guy that’s got money and says, “Right, I’m into this buying and selling stuff, but I have no idea about VA’s, I have no idea who’s good or who’s bad in the SEO industry. Can you help me?” Is that a service you guys also provide?

G: Yeah, that’s a great question. There is something we’re working on that will help people with that. I think I’ve talked to you about this. I’ve been working on this project for so long, but finally, it’s starting to come to the light of day. We’re building an actual course on buying and selling online businesses.

G: Within that course, when someone buys it, there will be a vendor list and what that vendor list will be is literally our sellers and buyers telling us who are the service providers that they are using, so that way you have a real up to date list all the time of successful buyers, because they bought the business and they’re still using the service provider or whatever, and successful sellers that use these service providers to get there. That is something we’re looking to do.

G: Typically, if someone comes to us and asks us, we’ll give them some basic advice of where to go and find them. Usually the best person to ask that, if you’re the buyer, is ask the seller who would they use. Because the seller is probably going to know. We’re all nerds in the thing that we do, so we usually know who are the influencers in our space. If you’re the buyer, you’re brand new, I would definitely ask the seller, “What blogs do you read? What conferences do you go to? Who do you like in the SEO space? What are the main things I should look to outsource if you were in my position buying this business?” Questions like that, you force the seller to think on your behalf to solve your problem. Of course they want you to buy the business, so they’re probably going to give you an actual answer. They’re going to give you the time of day.

C: It’s interesting what you guys are potentially doing, obviously giving basic advice there, but I think longterm a course would be something that you guys probably have a wealth of knowledge, experience, and stuff that you’re potentially not tapping into. It sounds like a good thing if you can ever get the time to get round to doing it.

G: Last month, I literally spent about a week and a half just building PowerPoints for it. Man, I’m so sick of Google slides.

C: Slides, videos, they’re all a pain in the ass. I don’t mind doing this, but they’re fairly easy, fun, require a lot of edits. But when it’s courses and shit, it’s a different ballgame and tedious. Fingers crossed that you do eventually, as I say, get that out there. What is the future for Empire Flippers? Is it just continuing to grow and scale, you’ll get more quality websites on there, or is there other plans to do anything cool going forward in the future?

Plans for the future?

G: We have a lot of plans, not all on them that I can necessarily talk about just yet. I’ve got to keep a little bit of my competitive edge. One thing I always tell my team specifically and whenever I’m speaking at the company is a lot of people, they focus on competitors. They’re, “They’re doing this or we’ve got to do that or whatever.” I’ve never been a big fan of that. I don’t like looking at what the competition is doing. I want to look what is ahead. Yeah, of course I want more quality of businesses. I want all of this stuff.

G: But what my goal is at Empire Flippers are the longterm goals. There’s one part of my five year plan, I’m about a year into it, is to look at who our real competitors are for what we really sell, which is an investment opportunity, really the emotional opportunity, change your life. Now, we might change your life in a very negative way if you buy this business and it just completely goes to shit. Sorry, that’s the risk.

G: I told my copywriter that when we sell this course, one of the gold lines is going to be me in a video saying, “I’m going to teach you in a way where you can possibly lose hundreds of thousands of dollars.” Just being honest. That could happen.

G: What I’m really trying to do is enter that space where people are talking about buying real estate, investing in stock markets. To me that’s my real competitor. I want to enter the conversation about adding digital assets as part of that mix of financial independence, good investing. Obviously, it’s on the aggressive, more riskier side, but it’s very hard for you to double investment in less than a year in real estate, especially in stocks. If you know what you’re doing in online business, I’m not going to say it’s easy, but it’s a lot easier I would say than these other factors. I want to enter into that space, really compete against people talking about investing in real estate and investing in stocks. Not to insult them, just to add to the conversation. I invest in real estate, so …

C: I think you’ve got to look at putting your eggs not all in one basket, not just going out to buy tons of real estate. I think buying and selling digital assets, as you say, can double, triple your money very, very quickly, especially if you know what you’re doing or even hire them a guy that knows what they’re doing. I think there’s a massive opportunity going forward there. Although affiliate marketing has been around for a number of years, a long time, I think it’s still in its infancy when it comes to investors and stuff like that. People are now just becoming more aware, just in my opinion. Everywhere I go now, everyone wants to talk to me about affiliate marketing. I’m like, “Fuck.” People are sick of their work and want to delve into this. I think it’s just going to continue to grow over the next five, ten years.

G: Absolutely. Yeah. For your audience out there that wants to do that, starting an affiliate site with just the mindset of I want to replace my job income, or buying one to replace your job income, all really good. But if you want to think bigger, view that content site in the same way as you might view a magazine, view it as a media company. That’s what opens you up to do a $132 million exit instead of a $100,000 exit is when you start thinking like that.

C: Yeah, for sure, man. If I ran an SEO agency, the first thing I would do once I got up to 10K a month, was like, all right, how do I get into affiliate marketing?

G: That’s the dream for most agencies now I think, of just get the client money and shovel it into affiliate or whatever buyer SAS tool or whatever the hell it’s going to be.

C: One thing I do want to ask you before we go … Obviously, it’s all good than well, people making lots of money, selling websites for 132 million. Has that ever been a situation with a guy who’s dropped hundreds of thousands of pounds and maybe had a rookie team, blown up a website, and come back to you guys and said, “You bastards! You robbed me here”? Does that happen regularly? Because we do training courses and you get these rookies or whatever, access their website, and the next day they’re on the phone. “My fucking website has blown up. It’s your fault. Your training was shit.”

C: Has there been that scenario where you literally, someone has dropped a ton of money and basically ruined the whole thing up for themselves?

G: Yes, absolutely. That’s why I said earlier, I’m going to let you buy this course where if you follow the course you might lose hundreds of thousands of dollars. We always want to be upfront about that. We try our best. Right? For example, one thing we do is, if we find out that you only have a certain amount of money … Say it was $150,000. That’s not just investible money, that’s your entire net worth, your emergency fund, all that kind of stuff. We find that out. We will try to prevent you from buying anything close to that amount. We’ll try, let’s go at 30 or 40K or something like that. We’ll try to prevent that. We can’t always. Some people still make that mistake because we can’t know everything.

G: In terms of sites going down, this is something that’s very interesting. It’s pretty recent. I had one of my new content specialists, Brandon, go interview everyone that’s bought a content site from us at least six months or longer in the past to understand what happened. We’re building this RLI case study. In fact, I just saw the first draft of it the other day. He ended up interviewing about 30 people. Out of that 30 people who bought from us, which obviously more than 30 people have bought from us, but that was the amount of people we could get ahold of, those 30 people, 67% of them either stayed exactly the same, in terms of what the income was on the site, or they grew significantly. Some of them grew by triple what they bought it for. Now that 43% or so, they didn’t do so well. If you look at entrepreneurship in general, that’s a huge step up from the, what, the 98% failure rate of most startups. If you look at it in that light, it’s actually quite positive.

G: Now in that 43%, one of the guys, because I told Brandon, “Look, go ahead and give them a VIP code to do this study for us. We’ll give them the ability to look at five businesses without putting down a deposit.” Something to get them to talk to us. The guy told him, “You’ve got to get that director of marketing Greg to send me $6,000.” I wasn’t even working at the company when you bought this business but … Yeah. We do get that. It’s just going to happen.

G: That’s, again, why I mentioned vetting and due diligence, two very different things. You can only say it so often. Sometimes people buy businesses they really shouldn’t. We try to tell them that, but we can only do so much if they decide to follow our advice or not. If you have zero coding experience and you buy a $1 million SAS business from us and we told you you probably shouldn’t, you buy it like, “How do I do Python?” We don’t know. No idea, dude. Why did you buy this? We told you not to.

C: Yeah, that does happen.

C: I suppose, I’m quite an impulsive guy, and I’m the type of guy that if I had the money I would probably come back with some bag of shit that I had no skills to do just because I thought it was the thing to buy. I guess a lot of guys are the same, just crazy impulsive buys and worry about the rest of it later on. They probably go by their monthly profit that’s listed in your website and go, “Wow, I’ll get my money back in two years or whatever.”

G: Yeah. Those 43%, some of them didn’t do anything necessarily wrong. When we look at what they actually did, basically all they did was like look at the back links, try to clean up the profile, and try to update some of the content. That was pretty much it. That’s all they did. Out of that 43%, it wasn’t like everything went zero. Most of them are still making money.

G: We have this one guy, when I first came on with the company, I was in Manila and he was living in Manila at the time. He bought about I think ten sites from us … This is back when we were selling much smaller sites, ten, 20 grand sites.

I asked him, “Oh, you must be a big fan of us.”

He said, “Yeah, I love you guys.”

“How’s your sites doing?”

Like, “They all tanked.”

“What? Why are you not furious at me?”

G: He was like, “No, no, no. You don’t understand. I’m not actually an internet marketer or anything like that. I actually invest mainly in real estate and stock. Yeah, they fell in comparison to where they were, but they’re way outpacing all my other investments.”

G: If only an internet marketer would ever think like that. You see a ten per cent drop, like what’s going on, what’s happening. But that investor guy, he’s like, “This is awesome. I haven’t done anything and it’s outpacing everything else.” It, again, comes down to your perspective.

C: Interesting. Sadly, we are out of time, but I’m sure we could probably talk for hours on everything. Anyone who’s looking to get on to Empire Flippers, it is EmpireFlippers.com and you can also find Gregory kicking about on Facebook and various other social media channels. Thank you for coming on. No doubt we will catch up somewhere soon.

G: Yeah, I hope so, man. Thank you so much for having me on. Hopefully, your audience got some value out of this. If they want to reach out to me personally, feel free to shoot me an email, greg@empireflippers.com. I’m usually pretty easy to get a hold of.

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Craig Campbell

I am a Glasgow based SEO expert who has been doing SEO for 18 years.

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